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 French M-1822 socket bayonet 
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Bericht French M-1822 socket bayonet
- I recently got a French M-1822 socket bayonet in very good condition [no rust, no pitting] with no scabbard. I don't have ready yet pictures showing my bayonet. This is a very well advanced and designed socket bayonet considering that it was manufactured during the early part of the 19th century. The French M-1822 socket bayonet was made for the French Model 1822 infantry flintlock which later [during the early 1840s] started to be converted into a percussion rifle.

My French M-1822 socket bayonet has these dimensions:
Overall length = 537mm; Blade length = 455mm;
Socket length = 68mm; Socket diameter [inside] = 21.5mm.

The socket has a bridge, the mortise slot and a median locking ring with the tension screw. The solid shank is about 40mm long. The blade is triangular with fullers on each side and some American socket bayonets [manufactured in US] did copy this type of blade. When fixed to the weapon, the French M-1822 socket bayonet is on the right side. There is a lug under the end of the barrel, lug which comes into the mortise slot and the locking ring secures the socket bayonet in place.

It's interesting that the only mark on my French M-1822 socket bayonet is the number "24" clearly stamped on the triangular blade by the shank. Nothing is stamped on the socket or shank.

---> QUESTIONS: =>

1) What is the meaning of the number "24" stamped on the blade by the shank???
2) Which French manufacturer(s) made the M-1822 socket bayonet???
3) What is the period of time when the French M-1822 socket bayonet was manufactured???
4) Was the French M-1822 socket bayonet [and the Model 1822 infantry flintlock] exported from France??? If this is true, which countries imported the French M-1822 socket bayonet???

Thanks in advance for any help, Orita 08/06/08

MOD : added line breaks to post


06 aug 2008, 05:37
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Pictures will be helpfull.

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06 aug 2008, 19:52
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- @ jdeleur: I hope to have some pictures ready soon. Orita 08/06/08


07 aug 2008, 04:25
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I'll look it up in "Les Baïonnettes Militaires Françaises" from Adam, Gérard & Méry, Christian & Renoux, Pierre which I bought recently.
Just need some more time :-)


07 aug 2008, 06:07
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A quick glimpse on the M1822 pages this morning learned me that :

1) the book mentions the "24" mark is a forger's mark, not necessairily linked to the year of construction
2) the book mentions "made by all manufacturers, including Klingenthal" so I'll try to get my hands on a complete list
3) they were manufactured from 1822 to at least 1837 if not 1840 (replaced gradually by the Mle. 1840 yataghan style bayonet)
4) I haven't seen info on export contracts. Will try to find out.


07 aug 2008, 07:22
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- @ virjins: You're lucky to have that book about the French bayonets. Here in USA the bayonet books are very expensive, hard to get and published in very limited numbers. ---> Is it possible that "24" to be the bayonet inspector's mark??? Thanks for helping me. Any info will be greatly appreciated. Bedankt, Orita 08/07/08


07 aug 2008, 16:26
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if it is on the blade the book describes it as the forgers mark, not inspection stamps.
but when it is on the shank itself it is an inspection or reception mark. a picture would help.
the makes can be St. Etienne, Câtellerault, Tulle, Klingenthal and Mutzig

and about the books, this book has short translations to English and Spanish as well. it really is worth its suggested price of €35 in my opinion, especially if you are into French bayonets. A quick count gives me the immense number of 96 different socket bayonets that figure in this book!


07 aug 2008, 17:20
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- Finally I got ready my pictures showing the French M-1822 socket bayonet I have [with no scabbard]. --->

Photo 1.
TOP: Note the only one mark, the number "24", stamped on the triangular blade by the shank. On that side of the blade, the wide fuller end is rounded. The socket bridge can be seen very well. => BOTTOM: Full image of the socket bayonet.

Afbeelding

Photo 2.
TOP: Note the original locking ring with the tension screw and the mortise slot which is fixed into the bayonet lug located under the barrel end when the bayonet is attached to the weapon.
BOTTOM: This is the position of the French M-1822 socket bayonet when is fixed to the weapon [looking from the top], the triangular blade is on the right side.

Afbeelding

Note by the front end of the socket [in my both photos], the mark left by the triangular blade after I did stab the white cardboard used as backgroung. That mark helps to see the triangular blade profile. ---> Any information about this type of bayonet would be appreciated. It also would be very interesting to know how these early 19th century socket bayonets were made, the full manufacturing process from the starting piece of metal to the final step when the bayonet was checked and ready for military use.
Orita 08/11/08

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12 aug 2008, 04:36
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- I asked on a French bayonet forum about the meaning of the number "24" stamped on the triangular blade [by the shank] of my French M-1822 socket bayonet and I also asked another questions related to the same French bayonet and I got NO answer, like I was asking questions about the dark side of the Moon. I gave up on them! Orita 09/10/08

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10 sep 2008, 22:09
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official documents on early bayonets are scarce and much of the information is based on observations. finding out what these marks are will not be easy at all...


11 sep 2008, 07:28
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- @ virjinz: Well, it is true what you wrote but I had been expecting some info considering that it is a French bayonet forum and the bayonet is also French ... Orita 09/11/08

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11 sep 2008, 14:28
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- I was recently told that this socket bayonet is NOT an original French M-1822 and it is a copy made in Belgium [probably in Liege ?]. There are actually 2 reasons which sustain this theory: => 1) As you already know, the marking "24" stamped on the blade ricasso seems to be typical for the Belgian way of marking the socket bayonets. The original French M-1822 bayonets have markings on both the ricasso blade and the shank, as I could see very well in the volume about the French military bayonets [volume I had received a few weeks ago]. => 2) I was able to find out a second mark on my socket bayonet: it is the letter "S" or the number "5" [very hard to be sure which one is] stamped on the locking ring about 1/4 inch [approx. 5-6 mm] close to the head of the tension screw. I was told that a small mark stamped on the locking ring by the locking screw head is also a typical feature of Belgian manufacture. ---> Any comments and ideas??? Thanks in advance for any help, Orita 10/16/08 P.S. It is true that some models of French socket bayonets were copied and manufactured in Belgium during the 19th century.

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16 okt 2008, 05:16
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Orita,

The members of this forum are from Holland and Belgium. There are several, like me, who are into general bayonet collecting. Some collect Dutch bayonets and others specialize in German bayonets. Most knowledge is concentrated on the WW1 and WW2 periods.

Although it is perfectly logical to ask questions concerning Belgium bayonets on a Belgian bayonet forum, I seriously doubt that there is anybody here who has the knowledge to answer specific questions on early 19th century Belgian made socket bayonets.

This does not mean that I (or we) are not interested to read your postings, but you have probably more knowledge on this specific subject than all of us together.

A complicating factor in your search is that during the 18th and 19th century the French were constantly setting new "fashion trends" in bayonets. Fashion trends that were being picked up and followed by other nations in Europe. A bayonet in the French style therefore does not necessarily have to have been made in France. Though Liege in Belgium is an option, I would also not rule out beforehand the various German states and a country like Spain for instance. Have you considered these?

Please keep us posted on your progress and do continue posting new topics, as these are allways interesting to read, but do appreciate that we have very limited knowledge on this niche subject.

Kilian


17 okt 2008, 20:23
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- @ Kilian: At the beginning of this year [2008] I went to see a local gundealer and his store, like I visit him every other month. The guy knows about bayonets like I know to speak Chinese [it means nothing]. He had an old socket bayonet and I could identify it like the Austrian M-1854 Lorenz. Keeping that 19th century socket bayonet in my hand it was like I got an electric wire around my body. "Why don't I collect old socket bayonets???" - I suddenly asked myself, "it's so much history in those old socket bayonets ..." I got from that gundealer the Austrian M-1854 Lorenz bayonet and this is the way it all started. I already presented that bayonet on this forum and other socket bayonets I got after that. I'm just trying to learn how much I can about the socket bayonets I have and I realize that today the old socket bayonets may not be too popular with most of the bayonet collectors. I try to learn from the books I have but unfortunately the books don't have all the answers. If I don't know, I ask questions. I like this forum [from Europe, don't forget that I was born in Europe], it has a high level of knowledge and I like to share what I do know about my bayonets. We learn from each other and this is the most important thing. ---> Speaking about the "French M-1822" socket bayonet which isn't really French made, I'm 99% sure it was manufactured in Belgium. The quality of manufacture is too high to be of Spanish origin and Germany and England did not make this type of socket bayonet. I'll post here anything I find out about this bayonet. Orita 10/17/08

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18 okt 2008, 04:47
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I have a few socket bayonets in my own collection, and I can fully understand that you have decided to specialize in these. They can still be obtained at affordable prices, there are many variations and they are interesting in their own way. I fail to understand why half the world now is frantically collecting German 98k bayonets, of which some 15 million pieces were made from 1935-1945. I guess it is the most common bayonet in the world.


19 okt 2008, 00:01
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